There’s no god damn horse shoe it’s just people don’t understand politics. You can be left wing and you can right wing and still be on authoritative dictator, freedom of expression is separated from social and economic policys.
It’s like saying you can’t be a dictator if you’re religious, it’s an insane comment, and yet somehow people think that it works for political philosophy.
it’s almost like you’re saying both ends of the spectrum can converge on the hows despite diverging on the whys, like they distance from each other in one regard but become closer in another… like the opposite ends of some kind of curved bar, you know?
That’s not even remotely what they’re saying because even the how is expressed differently. Left wing authoritarianism and right wing authoritarianism result in completely different outcomes, so no, even in your bad faith, condescending comment, horse shoe theory does not exist.
that’s just like… your opinion, man.
The guy who posted this tweet supports american imperialism and israel btw
I’m so confused by the way he ends so many messages with, “Thank you for your attention to this matter.”
Is his brain so thoroughly fried that he can only regurgitate bits of corpo-speak regardless of whether they are applicable?
My headcanon is that someone sent him a letter with that closing 45 years ago and he thought, “That’s a classy way to close a letter,” so now he always uses it when he wants to feel official.
I also tend to read it as conveying the sentiment, “Please pay attention to me because I fear I will die if you stop paying attention to me.”
The way he always signs his tweets, or whatever truth social calls them, that gets me. We know it’s you you idiot, it’s on your account
One thing we know Trump is legitimately good at is manipulating rubes.
“Thank you for your attention to this matter" is actually quite subtle; it’s got “you” and “your attention” in the same sentence, making it feel like he could be talking to you personally rather than as a group (compare e.g. Biden’s common “May God bless you all”).
“Hey, Trump thanked me for my attention, there’s a guy who respects and values my time and opinions, and the fact that he says it in every one of his messages only means that he really does care what I think.”
People at my work sometimes end emails with this phrase. I treat it as a dog whistle and stop respecting them.
I end some correspondance as such. I think its really funny. Sorry if this causes any confusion. I am not a big fan of the current US president.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!
Lol big difference between doing it to copy him vs being facetious. Thank you for your attention to this matter!
It hurts my head that they were being unironic. I guess people really are like that, though :(
Next time I need to send one of those emails that you have to rewrite 6 times in order to not get fired, I’m going to end it with that.
Most people who try to describe their enemy “the left” have about as much brain matter as JFK
I was really expecting you to say RFK with that worm business and all, but either work.
Flimsy excuse to post one of my favorite images
Man, when you look at it that way seems the whole family is cursed
Just their central nervous system, really. Everything else is or was tip-top.
JFK Jr: scrambled when he decided to push his flying skills beyond their limit, killing himself, his wife, and his sister-in-law.
There is no horseshoe.
It’s much better depicted as a 2D plane, a la Political Compass.
Tankies and Fascists have similarities because they’re both hyper-authoritarian, not because being more fascist somehow brings you closer to tankies than your previous close political associations.
North Korea has the files, and are blackmailing Trump with it.
Hackers: You can hack hackers to do the funniest shit in the world, if the Lazarus Group happen to have some unredacted Epstein Files on a computer connected to the net.
“Internet, do your thing 😎😂”
werent like half of the files released already?
How would we know? But estimates indicate that all the files currently released account for probably less than 1% of what they’re actually is. Of course not all of that will be relevant, quite a lot of it will either be duplications of information we already have or the pool cleaning schedule. But there will be some non-zero proportion that is criminally relevant.
yeah, I’m sure they only released the incriminating half, the rest is probably nothing
/s
Yeah, just look at all the arrests… HA!
If you control enough of a given currency you can do whatever the fuck you please.
Yeah, the states have gone to shit ever since they made crime legal (for the rich).
North Korea has the nukes, and any US surface ships within missile range have been sitting ducks for years. Trump is just the only one who can pass off a retreat as a victory.
There’s a relationship between hacking and North Korea, but its not in the direction you’re proposing.
Almost like the throughline is authoritarianism. They like it when they have control but they don’t like it when who they don’t like has control.
Honestly, it feels like those with lower iq and less ability to inform themselves are the ones that love authoritarianism. They can’t form a coherent ideology and devolve into just trying to control everyone to their underdeveloped beliefs.
That’s where the whole bullshit idea of horseshoe theory comes from. It’s people leaving out the authoritarian axis because it’s beneficial to divide actual leftists and make us seem crazy.
Why is far left trademarked?..
Antifa LLC owns the trademark
Satire
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Coming in with the Straw-Man Argument, it’s beanburger!!!
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I forgot everyone on lemmy is a fucking moron, my bad
You speaking for yourself on the matter?
Fair enough. That can be hard to recognize, let alone admit.
Where did I say that it isn’t?
I more and more think that there is just one dimension starting by authoritarian and ending with social.
Faschistst, Tankies, free market libertarians, autocrats and feudalists, are just authoritarians in with different origins. Their team should be in power, their team should be supported by everyone, while they profit from it.
While social people want nobody to suffer, everyone to be in power and have self a determination, etc.
True free market libertarians are anti authoritarian. US free market libertarians are always happy to have tax cuts, subsidies, tariffs, regulatory oversight etc. So long as it benefits them.
There no such thing as a free market. It’s a constant tug of war between corporate consolidation and government/public power preventing monopoly and abuse. Removing the public power just leaves corporations unchecked and able to control the market itself.
I don’t think ‘true free market libertarians’ exist. They only want free market because it benefits them at the specific time or circumstances they want it.
They do exist. But not in the real business world.
There are economists that argue (with academic justification) that fewer frictions increase growth. But they usually ignore topics like human rights, environmental impacts, inequality etc.
why do you oppose lifting sanctions on north korea - which is a nation that is one of the biggest victim of US imperialism?
Liberals are just imperialists.
Comply with international law and open up and I’d probably be for lifting them.
Just like I’m for removing sanctions on Cuba.
Just like I’m for imposing sanctions on Israel.
Just like I’m for imposing sanctions on my own imperialist country that’s bombing and invading the rest of the world.
And let’s point out too that it’s not the US alone who has sanctions on NK like we do on Cuba. The UN Security Council consistently votes against the Cuba sanctions. They don’t on NK sanctions. Russia and China are part of that council too with veto power, but it’s unanimois. So 🤷♂️
What I would be for, actually, is a better way to affect beneficial change and avoid harming civilians. Sanctions themselves disproportionately affect normal civilians through food and medical shortages, etc, while the political elite can avoid them.
We’re agreed though, liberals, especially neoliberal capitalists, are imperialists. And we’re feeling that imperial boomerang come back around to us finally.
Ok you are alright in this regard
I however disagree heavily with your assertion on “authoritarianism”, because I am a marxist leninist.
Every anti “authoritarian” tendency of socialism (moreso sceintific socialism i.e. marxism) is reactionary and idealist in itself.
So because of your political ideologies you are just going to hand wave aside authoritarianism, neat. What a load of trash.
We need the a Dictatorship of Proletariat to resist imperialism from outside and counter revolution from inside. In liberal terms that would be called authoritarianism, it could be ugly but its the reality and path we need to take.
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Comment you’re replying to never said any of that.
Why did you use the stethoscope instead of the actual left right auth liberty axes?
Ah yes. The Nazis to the left of Fascism with Hitler on their left flank.
A different kind of satire, I guess.
and the well known Libertarian Socialist Christopher Hitchens
Nazism adopted aspects of socialism, its just the Reich decided only certain groups were allowed to participate, while certain other groups were heavily persecuted stolen from, and murdered by the state. So on the Left Right scale yes they are slightly to the left of absolute right because of the social programs and redistribution of stolen wealth and land and the fact that while private ownership remained mostly intact private business was still guided and controlled by the state to facilitate the wartime economy. I’m not calling them socialists, just fascists that stole a few ideas from the socialists and implemented them in ways that would strengthen and benefit the german state, and pacify the remaining approved groups of approved peoples. It seems your conflating left right (communism - capitalism) with Authority and Liberty.
https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/life-in-nazi-occupied-europe/economic-policy/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_People's_Welfare
Though TBF If I had made this graphic myself i’d probably have expanded the Nazism area to overlap with the Fascism square
The graphic also has my old professor on it as a notable figure, which is also comical. I wouldn’t take it seriously at all.
Like attracts like. One egomaniacal narcissistic dictator likes another egomaniacal narcissistic dictator.
do you support the sanctions on DPRK? just curious
See. At least this time you asked about it instead of just assuming.
Sounds like a resounding “yes” to me.
What are y’all doing, tankie purity testing?
Edit to add 14 hours, 0 replies, and two [email protected] comments later:
Seems like the answer is “Yes” (or otherwise “I don’t want to answer because the answer would reflect poorly on me/us.”)
I heard a conservative say the Iran situation is because Trump used to be a democrat and there’s still some democrat in him.
A 100% republican would have fixed Iran in 2 weeks.
Nah you see a real republican would have bombed them into submission and sent in the seals to finish the job /s
Fr the only chance of winning would have been by perfectly following the rules of war, showing restraint, and working to arm dissidents and build a resistance capable of running a successful rebellion and governing well. Followed by us helping the new government build itself up. We learned nothing in Vietnam, we learned nothing in Iraq, and by fuck we managed to learn nothing in Afghanistan. We also managed to completely unlearn everything we learned in France, Germany, and Japan.
But had we learned all this we wouldn’t have gone in alone, we’d’ve asked for the UN to call for troops to protect the protesters and worked with the international community to protect human rights.
Depending on the Republican, would be a good chance for a reckless invasion that gets a lot of Americans killed.
No no, a REAL Republican would have personally walked into Iran naked, without a security detail, and carrying an American flag and an AR14 while proclaiming the Strait of Hormuz theirs. There’s still time if Trump or any tech CEO wants to show off their masculinity.
Damn in hindsight, it’s obvious he’s a lying piece of shit rapist, but at the time it was obvious too.
… look, whatever it takes to get them to want him gone.
I don’t care if it’s because they think he’s a secret space penguin as long as they vote to impeach and remove.
Donald Trump has been appointed new administrator of lemmy.ml.
I have a great Modlog, probably the best Modlog in the fediverse. People look at my Modlog and ask: How do you do it sir? That’s a beautiful Modlog you have there. My ballroom is gonna be beautiful too.
At least they don’t make hidden blocklists to shadownban dissenting opinions. They just dunk on you publicly.
You have been banned from Lemmy.ml
It’s crazy to call that dunkimg on somebody. It’s the equivalent to having to get rid of a houseplant because your idiot trembling chihuahua is scared of it and pisses on the floor whenever it sees it.
Oh my god the /r/pyongyang jokes from 15 years ago are just reality now.
why do you say this
ML stands for Marxist-Leninist, but in practice it stands for kissing the ass of the dictators in China, Russia and North Korea.
I thought it was the national domain of the Metherlands…???
The Metherlands? That’s my new go to for the Missouri boot heel?
lol, I always thought it stands for machine learning
meth learning.
which are all right wing countries by the way, thats why they mirror conservatives.
They’re auth. left-right is the economic style
I am marxist leninist, I support lifting sanctions on North Korea, am I a tankie?
“Wow what a riposte, really roasted that guy. Totally shut down his critique of AES by totally ignoring it and deflecting back to Amerikkka” –Every ml user in every conversation ever
?
Original post: trump incorrectly claims a country that constantly launches missiles towards neighbors and had the world’s most recent nuclear bomb test is unthreatening and respectful, in part because he likes Kim Jong Un
Top level comment: wow trump has ml user rhetoric
Comment you replied to: yes, ml users hold irrational NK views in the same line as trump’s tweet
You: wHaT aBoUt [USA] SaNcTiOnS??
Nobody was talking about anything related to sanctions, let alone supporting them. You’ve been trying to drop this non sequiter all over the comment section. In your mind, every geopolitical conversation MUST be directed towards pwning the westoids; any opposition to USA hegemony absolves an actor of defects. That is what makes you a tankie.
Look, I dont even care about the tankie label
I know liberals have this ilk of bloodlust, imperialist wars and military aggression. Its not far fetched to think they would support sanctions on DPRK
It is not a horseshoe: tankies are just another flavour of far right
how would you describe the far left?
For me, they’re some radical anarchist, especially of the flavour which rejects technology and proposes going back to tribal, gatherer life (not my cup of tea). But any progressive movement with some signs of democracy and true equality is more to left than tankies. Of course, I do admit that sometimes there is a need for authority – like in the paradox of tolerance, the problem with free speech etc.
What Smoke and Mirrors! What bombast! Now release the trump-epstein mp4s and remove the degenerate-in-chief!
“Far left”
“Tankie”
Choose one
The left-right spectrum makes less sense to me by the day.
However, I personally define tankies as authoritians who do some mental gymnastics to think that a benevolent “socialist” dictatorship equates to control of society by the workers. (It obviously doesn’t. A dictatorship by a minority is exactly that)
Anyone who defines North Korea as socialist needs to reconsider their political positions, in my opinion.
Just because they’re in opposition to the capitalist South Korea and the worst imperialist nation in the world, the USA, doesn’t mean you need to stand behind the North Korean regime…
All the cool socialists think campism is brainrot (my opinion)
The problem with any political label is that they’re outdated by the time you define them.
The tankies describe themselves as such.
To not be associated with them, more actual far-left adherents need to actively disavow the tankies.
Tankies:
Edit: actually i think i wouldn’t put them exactly in that X axis position, i am sleepy so ain’t gonna try to understand well their exact position so that’s good enough
you use political compass in big 26.
Sorry, that doesn’t play into the both-sides false-equivalency rhetoric. Please delete this comment.
You can be left and authoritarian. At least outside of the US you can, in America all politics get squashed into a single binary choice, so it seems weird.
You can also be left and be right, and dumb and wise, and black and white, all simultaneously! Up is down, back is forwards, authoritarian is left!
No, left is against hierarchy
anarchism isnt the only branch of left, similarly how libertarianism isnt the only branch of right. You guys are too confident for associating yourself with a vastly non existent ideology
Schrödinger’s political chessboard
No, left is socialist (in the broad sense, opposed to individualism)
* Anarchism has entered the chat*
Yea just gonna full sail disagree with you on this claim.
Many types of anarchism fit under the socialist umbrella
Yes, I agree, which would disagree with the other comment’s point that socialism inherently opposes individualism.
Interesting. Where/when are they not opposed?
Edit: Noting that I didn’t mean that they are mutually exclusive outside of social structure… You can take individual actions in a socialist society. The question is just around which is the core principle of the organisation of society.
Edit 2: to me anarchy isn’t inherently individualistic, it is just opposed to power-over social structures. You can have a voluntary socialism. Look at Chiapas, for instance.
As much as i know, anarchy is not indivualist since the entire point of anarchism should be that the community works togheter to do stuff
It’s not a binary. I’m against hierarchal class structures but I still think we need specialists making rules about shit like environmental protection.
I thought libertarians were against hierarchy
We have nothing against hierarchy as long as everybody agrees who is in charge and why and nobody is coerced into it.
Tankies are what happens when you go all the way left and all the way up into Authoritarianship
end up being right wing. authoritarian in nature is often conservative leaning.
Right wing and left wing are economic labels communism and capatalism. Right wing people tend to cluster towards the authoritarian side of the authority and liberty scale but so do left wingers.
Yeah but right wing in tankie states were called the nomenclature, the old guard
We clearly are having a communication issue here. Right wing has meant pro-capitalism for over 200 years
mint > meant I blame speech to text.
The distinction between left and right wing comes from the French Revolution. Everyone who wanted to keep the King lined up on the right. Everyone who wanted to try sonething new lined up on the left. Leftism is certainly inherently anti-monarchical, and I would argue also inherently anti-hierarchical. Tankies are right-wing communists; that’s why left wing communists tend to disagree with them.
right wing is support of capitalism left wing is support of Communism You’re not going to change the definition by selectively copy pasting the answer that you got by googling the definition of left right spectrum. You are conflating conservatism with capitalism they are two separate human conditions.
I can also copy paste from Google
Conservatism is a social and political philosophy focused on preserving traditional values, social order, and established institutions. Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership, market competition, and profit. While often closely allied in modern politics, they represent distinct concepts that can sometimes conflict
I do want to stress that I’m not calling you stupid. I’m just trying to let you know that the words you are using do not mean what you think they mean.
Leftism is certainly inherently anti-monarchical
These words mean five different things to four different people, but I’ll bite. Was the Meiji restoration ‘left’ or ‘right’?
lenin was anti left-com, its ideology of twitter kids.
I heard recently on a podcast a friend put on after we broke a ‘length of time arguing about music’ rule that ‘horseshoe theory exists and is real, but only for idiots’
This is the truest thing I have ever heard.
Can someone point me at one of these “tankies”? I only ever see strawman posts about how stupid they are.
Refresh this thread
I mean there’s a random meme and otherwise it’s people arguing about propaganda. I’m waiting for the “Holodomor was based” people to show up.
Post something controversial like “Stalin killed some of his own people” on .ml and you’ll see plenty of them.
Either that or say NK is a dictatorship. When I first got on lemmy I got dogpiled by the hexies because I dared to say NK is a highly propagandized country (even gasp* moreso than the US). Still waiting for even a single one of those guys to move countries to live under the Kim regime, which apparently is the chillest, friendliest place on earth.
Nowhere on earth is more propagandized than the US. It’s a literal $607B a year industry and it’s infected most of the planet at this stage.
Another wild ml account appears. Go live in NK and report back for me on the level of propaganda.
No, if you don’t see the propaganda level the United States has achieved, you’re blind.
Remember how every news channel on both sides of the aisle was denying Israel doing a genocide for the past 3 years?
Ever notice how every single news corp is owned by billionaire capitalists?
They are always great examples of the ol’ Whataboutisum.
I’m not a tankie I just find the content there more interesting than whatever bullshit PR puff pieces get posted elsewhere. Do you want to engage with what I said on a factual basis or is your max level ad hominem? The marketing industry literally evolved out of Freud’s psychoanalysis work as applied to US propaganda in the 2nd world war by his nephew Edward Bernays who then needed something else to apply it to after the war finished. American propaganda is so pervasive it’s fucking depressing. You go to Europe it’s there slapping you in the face. You go to South East Asia and it’s there again. I have never seen any NK propaganda outside what I see on Youtube.
Are the NK people free to watch whatever media they want? If not, they’re by definition more controlled by propaganda than the US. I haven’t seen a video ad in years. I watch leftist media. If I’m able to avoid right wing propaganda and the NKs are not, that’s a problem.
I’m not denying that the US has a massive propaganda problem. But comparing it to a closed state-run internet and media environment is just silly.
You’re not seeing this clearly. NK propaganda is so primitive they need to restrict the media people can consume. US propaganda mechanisms are so advanced and sophisticated that they can create the illusion of choice and the majority fall for it. There are so many avenues and strategies. The Koreans can’t compete. North Korea has a GDP of $34B. US marketing industry is nearly 18 times bigger than the whole of the NK economy. Do you understand what that means? They have to use crude methods because they can’t afford sophisticated ones.
US is absolutely more propagandized than NK lmao, NK dont even need to propagandize their people against US, they just need to tell the truth about the horrific crimes US commited there. What has NK ever done against US to be this demonized? lol.
US bad doesn’t mean NK good, ya mook
when did I say that? good and bad are moralist positions, we marxists dont believe in moralism.
You’re all over this thread putting words into people’s mouths then get upset when someone does it back to you. Lmao.
What has NK ever done against US to be this demonized?
That’s the wrong question
Look man, when you drop so many bombs on a country that people start living in caves, and your own pilots start complaining that there are no targets left to hit, I don’t think you get to position yourself as the good guy.
Is North Korea a place with a troublesome political culture and a cult of personality problem? Yeah, but if you wanna know who’s fault that is, go look in a mirror.
why? USA wiped out 12-15% of North korean population btw, they have every single right in the universe to demonize that country.
Is that why you support the killing of millions of USSR civis? Like legit?
when you are in a making shit up competition and your opponent is a kamla harris voter liberal:
Just go to Lemmy.ml
It’s not a strawman, that’s just how how far out of left field they are.
An example https://vger.to/infosec.pub/post/37975928
I mean they exist, but it’s like… 3 people?
It’s mostly bots, people get into argument with tankie bots and then make a whole fucking drama post about it.
