CCP bootlickers run Lemmy like reddit? Damn thats a bummer
The thing is china has a bunch of legit cool stuff about it but its never even the stuff that gets highlighted and instead these communities just infinitely recite the propaganda that is thought to them. Its one thing to like china(which is already a red flag cause you shouldnt like a huge imperialistic dictatorship) but another thing to mindlessly recite it.
This is why I personally like to use the cool shit Yugoslavia did. Obscure by western standards and the only ones who get weird about it are Serbs.
I dunno it’s pretty easy to think China has some really cool things but also acknowledge it’s a terrible place
Genocide bad
What a brave take!
I can see your imminent ban in my crystal ball.
noo :<
A lot of CCP trolls would say that the Uyghur genocide isn’t happening and that witness testimony is from a one woman or couple of people who defected to propagandise for the West. But there is a point made that there are too many complains from hundreds, if not thousands, of Uyghurs to dismiss the accusation of genocide as merely from a handful of individuals. Because most people would rather get on with their lives than waste time making accusations.
Shitting on the CCP in any ML community will get you banned for “orientalism”
I specifically said the people of China are nice but the CCP can go fuck itaely
I met couple of Chinese who acknowledge the party is tyrannical but they avoid delving deeper into politics. Despite having emigrated, it’s a learned response I guess for many Chinese not to talk about politics.
I met couple of Chinese who acknowledge the party is tyrannical but they avoid delving deeper into politics.\
This is because it’s illegal to criticize the CCP in China. You can get arrested for this.
We in the west talk a lot of crap about freedom of speech but don’t realize how precious a thing it truly is.That’s a totally understandable response. What’s not understandable is denying any wrongdoing from the CCP.
Yep. Ate a 3 day ban recently from /c/memes for exactly that before I realized I was on lemmy.ml/c/memes.
c/memes is a cesspool of CCP bootlickers
[email protected] Banned
welp
China seems to have positive and negative characteristics. For the non-rich it seems slightly better than the US and worse than (say) Norway. They’re still imperialist although they seem more inclined to use soft power and economic relationships rather than warfare.
Greetings from Hanoi. China kills Vietnamese and Philippine fisherman and other mariners each year using their paramilitary shadow fleet. China is also a big place and the difference between non-rich in a developed province and non-rich in the rural provinces is extreme. In the last decade, the size of the middle class in places like Shanghai has shrunk dramatically and was arguably never even on par with similar level workers in the USA.
I appreciate the perspective. I knew the Chinese government was not allied with Vietnam but I didn’t know about the killings. And your point about the difference between non-rich in rural areas vs urban areas is true in the US as well. In fact, there was a UN delegation that reported finding some of the most extreme poverty in the world in places like rural West Virginia.
The point is not that you need to unquestioningly think that China is the most evil country on earth. The point is that there absolutely are a notable subset of leftists (just wander over to .ml if you want to find them) who will dismiss literally any criticism of China as “Western propaganda” and basically act like they’re absolute paragons of good. Those are the people being called out here.
Turns out geopolitics isn’t simple.
Unless we’re talking about nuking France.
Maybe we could discuss around a croissant first?
Carful, France is the only nuclear power with an explicit nuclear first strike doctrine.
fire ze missiles
Not sure how accurate the numbers are but this seems to show suicide rates per 100,000 are at 8.9 for China, and 15.6 for the U.S.
That might actually be more about the guns than the despair
True, but people who want to die will find a way. When I was younger I remember there was a sudden influx of people who realized you could speed into the back of an 18 wheeler and the hood/bottom of your car would go under, and the payload crate would crush your head/upper body near instantly.
When you’re really depressed, simple barriers like that can make a big difference. I believe antidepressants can sometimes cause suicide because the patient finally feels ready to go out of their daily routine and get it done. And I can tell you anecdotally that if my mom kept a gun in my house I’d have been dead for over 20 years now. But all my options were unreliable or painful, so I just hid in my hole instead.
I agree. I’ve been 18 for near 19 years now, and have owned at least 1 gun for 17 of them. The 1 year was a choice when I was depressed, not the only time I was… But I understand your thoughts there.
Hope you’re doing better now. Depression and suicide fucking suck, I’ve lost too many close family and friends to it. I’m fighting that black dog now too.
Human behaviour is formed by both individual traits and their environment. When there are easy and effective suicide options available, suicide numbers tend to be higher. See e.g. https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-releases/about-740000-global-deaths-suicide-occur-annually-thats-one
That number probably doesn’t even count the suicide by cop. Lots of black men do stupid shit to get people to shoot them too, Ive heard it said
Yep. Twice I’ve had black dudes try to suicide-by-cop on me and twice they failed to achieve it. They apologized afterward, admitting that they assumed the stereotype was true and not only was their death guaranteed but I wouldn’t feel anything about it.
Both would have likely just been recorded as “attempted murder” on me and “justified shooting” without their words after the fact indicating they were attempting suicide.
I also wonder if drugs are as widely available? Some people just take a bunch of pills.
Not sure about pills, but most of East Asia has a special hatred for drugs because of the opium crisis back in the 1800s or so. Sometimes I wonder if all the fentanyl coming from China or made with Chinese precurso ingredients is subtle revenge.
ok, so significantly better than the US
Yeah, that was 16 years ago and I think that was actually highly publicized and ended up changing things in favor of workers.
China also has a very fast justice system where there’s no jury so they just put you in front of a judge and then shoot you out back.
But I’ve just read stuff on the internet and don’t have much first hand experience so hopefully people with more first hand knowledge can correct this. Also open to new kinds of propaganda, both sides ya know
Yes, I’m sure their workers rights are so much better now. I’m sure BYD in China is totally different from the near slavery from BYD in Hungary.
Definitely no wage slavery in the US
We have problems to work on. Things here are far from ideal.
But China is not the right direction. I’d rather be here than China.
I doubt working for BYD is any worse than working for Amazon. China just has more manufacturing jobs which tend to suck more than other jobs and exploit workers in more visible ways. It is still the case that by most metrics (quality of life, affordability of homes, income inequality, etc.) China is better. That doesn’t mean they don’t exploit workers or that we should adopt their system, because it has flaws of its own that we can learn from. IMO it was a mistake to require that all labor unions be formalized under the ACFTU (All-China Federation of Trade Unions). By banning independent unions the state becomes a magnet for corruption and a barrier to working class progress. The business community forms relationships with government and is able to exert influence over the ACFTU to control workers. That being said, even a bureaucratic union constrained by the state is better than no union at all because they at least have to maintain the appearance of protecting the interests of the working class.
Contractors hired to build BYD’s factory in Hungary allegedly kept thousands of employees working seven days a week, with shifts lasting more than 12 hours a day,
84 hours a week is worse than anything Amazon has done. And we need to fix Amazon.
This is a perfect analogy. Amazon is bad. BYD is much worse.
Nah man China is like a utopia or something.
you ain’t lived till you been to the democratic people’s republic of north korea
Yeah man they keep voting for the same guy every single time, like everyone. He must be a great leader.
See, it specifically says the PEOPLE are democratic. It just doesn’t matter because the GOVERNMENT is despotic. 😌
Nah the propaganda told me it’s all the leader’s good work making the country so amazing.
Oh no a genocide!
Hey at least us western nations haven’t been party to such a thing, eh?The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?
Genocide is bad no matter who does it
Like war is bad, but only Russia is sanctioned?
People could also acknowledge that the US organise regime changes and that the genocide is part of a hybrid war which shifts some responsibility onto the US.
Not even wikipedia thinks it’s genocide anymore… get with the program
So you don’t think it’s genocide? How come? This is a complicated issue and I’m legitimately seeking information
I have not seen any evidence beyond some generic jail images, there seems to be no resistance organisation within xinjiang, i do not see a reason for china to do this and all the reporting is filled with non-objective loaded language like “authoritarian”, “brutal crackdown”, “chinese regime” etc.
compare all of the reporting from this so-call “genocide” to the actual reporting (the non-western or indie kind) from the actually ongoing genocide of the palestinians, its night and day.
then there were many predominantly muslim countries that sent officials to visit xinjiang and they came back satisfied that there was no ongoing genocide. We get more information out of the tightly regulated gaza ghetto than an entire autonomous region in china. If you want some more hard facts and recent history of the region I can dig some stuff up if you want, I don’t remember most of it since it’s been a while since I looked at this stuff myself.
You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier, so here’s some Wikipedia commentary about recent developments in Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Classification_of_abuses
And an article about terrorism/resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Xinjiang
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier
Not at all, on the contrary, I was pointed out that even wikipedia doesn’t call it a genocide anymore.
It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han.
Not to me, because whenever I look on xiaohongshu for uyghur content there is a lot to find there. The street signs have both uyghur and chinese letters, uyghur is taught in schools, people can practice their faith, I don’t see this erasure at all. Whole-ass street festivals where uyghur people celebrate with their food and music, broadcast on a chinese app aimed mainly at chinese people.
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it.
Who is “they” in this case? The government of china underwent multiple radical transformations. I wouldn’t think that the china of today has the same goals as the china of even 50 years ago. Or do you mean the people of china? I am not aware of any popular hateful sentiment towards uyghur people. Shouldn’t there be a lot anti-uyghur propaganda around to rally the han chinese against the uyghurs? Granted I’m not super prolific on chinese media, I occasionally go to xiaohongshu but it would be pretty convincing evidence if there was a governmental campaign to rally hate amongst the han chinese against the uyghur people.
Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Why do they need erase the culture of the uyghur people to get access to the natural resources there? The extending of borders doesn’t make sense to me, xinjiang is already a part of the republic? And who benefits from all this? A genocide is a massive operation, no one undertakes genocide unless they don’t expect immense profits from it. E. g. during the holocaust it was companies like IG Farben, Bayer, Lufthansa, Siemens, Rheinmetall and so on. Also what was the spark that set it off? The reporting is just like, nothing prior to like 2019 or so, suddenly genocide, then some backtracking and now radio silence again.
The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity
And that’s what most people understand under genocide. Also the forcible sterilisation would fall under the ICC definition but aside from that one legal opinion from like 5 years or so is there anything new on that? What about the 1 million people in detention have they been freed? Like I see these articles like this one again after a couple years now and they seem even less credible, just really bombastic flashy effects but at it’s core, just some satellite images showing like 3 or 4 construction sites to prove abductions of hundreds of thousands, that’s the thing that gets me. Hundreds of thousands. That’s a massive massive operation, I would expect more evidence and local resistance groups and aid networks and so on…
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide”
So no genocide in Xinjiang? Or are we going by another definition of genocide?
Look at this guy. Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
Then complain about all genocide instead of picking and choosing, right there bud?
No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?
On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?
I appreciate the well read, as you appear to be, but there’s such a thing as overthinking it.
OP’s post is bringing attention to one genocide. I sarcastically drew attention to additional genocidal empires.
It’s not even “whataboutism”. It’s “you are picking and choosing and should be called out for it”.I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).
For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.
This is a classic example of “whataboutism”. One country participating in genocide does not excuse other countries from doing so, nor does it make any of them immune to criticism.
They couldn’t have provided a more obvious example of whataboutism even if they literally wrote one for a textbook.
Ah, “whataboutism”.
The new, “gaslighting” to be thrown around without understanding. 😆a rhetorical tactic and logical fallacy where someone responds to a criticism or accusation not by defending their position, but by deflecting blame and making a counter-accusation. It serves to distract from the original issue by shifting focus …
Nope, I think that’s pretty well understood, since it’s exactly what’s happening here.
The only one here with a lack of understanding is yourself, bud!
I don’t think you’re qualified to make that assumption.
You don’t get to decide who’s qualified or not, since you have no problem with genocide and all. LMAO
Riveting discourse
Oh but you get to decide who understands, huh?
What a stupid take. Lol you’re a fucking clown.
Also, where did you get that I “have no problem with genocide”.
I swear to god it’s like talking to half-wits on Lemmy most of the time…Mmm, loving the ad hominem! You deflect from the East’s genocides because the West does the same, as if that excuses the East for doing it. That’s classic whataboutism and a common tactic of those who don’t have a problem with Eastern genocide.
it’s literally narcissism, I tell you what, all of these gas lighters and their whataboutisms, they are committing literary genocide
What is the suggested process for genocide claim?
Is a (or multiple?) third party inspector needed to be proven innocent?At this point, I don’t even know. Every bit of news coming out of it is potentially highly biased by one side or the other. I don’t think I could be completely sure unless I went there and saw for myself.
However… I’m highly suspicious of anyone who says, “The genocide is obviously fake – see, official Chinese state media says so, and that’s that!”
Even if the genocide actually isn’t real (and it might not be), I really don’t think I want to associate with people who would blindly and enthusiastically take the accused state’s word on it without a second thought.
There’s a lot of third party evidence as well.
Third party evidence on which side? Because aside from Chinese media, I haven’t seen much that disproves the ongoing genocide narrative.
Here’s a video that covers it
That video is pretty short on any kind of evidence. Its a pro-CCP influencer basically saying trust me bro, the programs in Xinjiang are great.
I’m not saying he is necessarily wrong, but I don’t think there is enough substance there.
pro-CCP influencer with only 3 china videos out of 25? Try better to write off the evidence. He went to the province and interviewed native. He explains the origin of the claims and breaks them down. Did you watch the video?
I did watch it. And there were some red flags. He is an influencer that left the US and moved to China, which isn’t necessarily a reason to discount him. However, he also treats Taiwan like it is settled that it is a Chinese territory when the CCP has at no point governed over Taiwan. So he is parroting CCP narratives on Taiwan, which casts doubt on other things he is discussing. He also did the tired trope of referencing US atrocities like the genocide of indigenous people in the US, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. So forgive me for not trusting his video and referencing him as a pro-CCP influencer based on the talking points and content of the video.
Dude, they don’t want to argue based on facts.
He’s gonna move the goal posts, no true scotsman, no sequitur until you quit, then act like they won.
