This is a classic example of “whataboutism”. One country participating in genocide does not excuse other countries from doing so, nor does it make any of them immune to criticism.
a rhetorical tactic and logical fallacy where someone responds to a criticism or accusation not by defending their position, but by deflecting blame and making a counter-accusation. It serves to distract from the original issue by shifting focus …
Nope, I think that’s pretty well understood, since it’s exactly what’s happening here.
Oh but you get to decide who understands, huh?
What a stupid take. Lol you’re a fucking clown.
Also, where did you get that I “have no problem with genocide”.
I swear to god it’s like talking to half-wits on Lemmy most of the time…
Mmm, loving the ad hominem! You deflect from the East’s genocides because the West does the same, as if that excuses the East for doing it. That’s classic whataboutism and a common tactic of those who don’t have a problem with Eastern genocide.
The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?
People could also acknowledge that the US organise regime changes and that the genocide is part of a hybrid war which shifts some responsibility onto the US.
Q1: When was consensus established to name the page Persecution of Uyghurs in China?
A1: The current title reflects the consensus established in the most recent move discussion (22 January 2024). Two previous widely attended move discussions (30 June 2020 and 1 April 2021) had resulted in this page being titled Uyghur genocide. Please see Logs and discussions below for the full list of move discussions. In these discussions, editors discussed reporting from reliable sources in light of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the first two times establishing an affirmative consensus that the title “Uyghur genocide” is an appropriate name for the article. The third debate, immediately following a 12 January 2024 discussion that was closed as “not moved”, citing WP:NCENPOV as the naming convention guideline justifying a shift to the new name.
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition
not the impression what I got. See the discussion about it here, it seems the main issue was a lack of sources calling it the “uyghur genocide”.
mainly the discussion was kicked off because it revealed wikipedia’s western bias:
Uyghur genocide → Uyghur genocide accusation – In line with Palestinian genocide accusation and doesn’t imply it’s a settled fact like the current title does, but also still in line with the WP:COMMONNAME arguments (which I don’t agree with, but this is a compromise) since it includes the supposed common name. The discrepancy between the current titles of this page and Palestinian genocide accusation implies a hypocrisy on the part of Wikipedia.
So clearly they’re arguing about whether it’s a “settled fact” or not. The discussion there is about a lack of scholarly articles calling it “genocide” and I don’t see anyone arguing it on the basis of it not meeting any sort of legal criteria.
Also you can stop posting the same material over and over again, I promise you I have seen at least the source material, back when I made my deep dive and found it lacking. If there’s anything new on this issue within the last 3 years please do let me know. Otherwise it seems like everybody dropped it as the so-called “human rights violations” peetered out due to lack of us-backed salafi terrorism.
I have not seen any evidence beyond some generic jail images, there seems to be no resistance organisation within xinjiang, i do not see a reason for china to do this and all the reporting is filled with non-objective loaded language like “authoritarian”, “brutal crackdown”, “chinese regime” etc.
compare all of the reporting from this so-call “genocide” to the actual reporting (the non-western or indie kind) from the actually ongoing genocide of the palestinians, its night and day.
then there were many predominantly muslim countries that sent officials to visit xinjiang and they came back satisfied that there was no ongoing genocide. We get more information out of the tightly regulated gaza ghetto than an entire autonomous region in china. If you want some more hard facts and recent history of the region I can dig some stuff up if you want, I don’t remember most of it since it’s been a while since I looked at this stuff myself.
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
Not at all, on the contrary, I was pointed out that even wikipedia doesn’t call it a genocide anymore.
It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han.
Not to me, because whenever I look on xiaohongshu for uyghur content there is a lot to find there. The street signs have both uyghur and chinese letters, uyghur is taught in schools, people can practice their faith, I don’t see this erasure at all. Whole-ass street festivals where uyghur people celebrate with their food and music, broadcast on a chinese app aimed mainly at chinese people.
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it.
Who is “they” in this case? The government of china underwent multiple radical transformations. I wouldn’t think that the china of today has the same goals as the china of even 50 years ago. Or do you mean the people of china? I am not aware of any popular hateful sentiment towards uyghur people. Shouldn’t there be a lot anti-uyghur propaganda around to rally the han chinese against the uyghurs? Granted I’m not super prolific on chinese media, I occasionally go to xiaohongshu but it would be pretty convincing evidence if there was a governmental campaign to rally hate amongst the han chinese against the uyghur people.
Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Why do they need erase the culture of the uyghur people to get access to the natural resources there? The extending of borders doesn’t make sense to me, xinjiang is already a part of the republic? And who benefits from all this? A genocide is a massive operation, no one undertakes genocide unless they don’t expect immense profits from it. E. g. during the holocaust it was companies like IG Farben, Bayer, Lufthansa, Siemens, Rheinmetall and so on. Also what was the spark that set it off? The reporting is just like, nothing prior to like 2019 or so, suddenly genocide, then some backtracking and now radio silence again.
The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity
And that’s what most people understand under genocide. Also the forcible sterilisation would fall under the ICC definition but aside from that one legal opinion from like 5 years or so is there anything new on that? What about the 1 million people in detention have they been freed? Like I see these articles like this one again after a couple years now and they seem even less credible, just really bombastic flashy effects but at it’s core, just some satellite images showing like 3 or 4 construction sites to prove abductions of hundreds of thousands, that’s the thing that gets me. Hundreds of thousands. That’s a massive massive operation, I would expect more evidence and local resistance groups and aid networks and so on…
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide”
So no genocide in Xinjiang? Or are we going by another definition of genocide?
I wanted to know how you formed your opinion, and I also had never heard of Xiaohongshu before (I just now made the connection that it’s RedNote). So, cool.
I’m not confident of what’s happening in Xinjiang. I know I’m surrounded by US/Western propaganda, and I’m trying to cut through it without succumbing to anyone else’s propaganda.
I grew up in a liberal society, and sometimes ML Theory seems like a really strange way of looking at the world. So I’m not building any opinions based on what I guess someone’s motivations are (especially the CCP).
I’ve been given to believe that genocide is a liberal idea, because it’s couched in false consciousness ideas about race and ethnicity. So a hypothetical AES state could commit mass murder, but not necessarily genocide. What do you think?
On 1. yeah I should have clarified sorry. After the TikTok exodus I got curious and had a look
On 2. I think it was this comment that had a lot of vital background information, like e.g. that the sufi terrorist attacks that started this whole ordeal were US-backed and orchestrated. That they were doing in Xinjiang what they had previously done in Afghanistan with the mujaheddin. Other links are compiled by davel for instance here.
On 3. I had the exact opposite reaction lol. When reading Marx and Lenin I thought it such a natural way of looking at the world. I remember reading “Wagelabor and capital” I thinking that the individual observation weren’t a great new insight (when demand down then price go down as well who knew?) but put together they formed a new understanding of the world. Looking at stuff like the reserve army of labor gave me a whole new perspective of the world how I relate to society etc.
Part of that is because being christian with a protestant upbringing I had to repeatedly synthesize contradictions. Evolution vs creationism being one of the bigger ones. Lately I’m on veganism vs carnism and speciesm practiced by Jesus himself which might be the one that does it in if I’m to be honest. It’s of course not helped by the fact that all the churches around here are turbozionist so I feel completely estranged from what I used to consider my community. But the whole idea of holding two contradictory concepts and instead of rejecting one or the other marrying them and forming a new understanding of both was something I had already done pretty much all my life.
It completely reshaped my understanding of nazi germany for instance, from one where the nazis were evil because they just hated minorities and people who thought different, to the nazis were the evil expression of the capitalists. The reason the nazis were able to gain power is because they got bankrolled by the industry leaders and the reason the industry leaders bankrolled them is because they were reeling from the aftermath of world war 1 and because they were deathly afraid of a communist revolution in Germany akin to the ones in the soviet states. Taking it further and seeing that the holocaust was basically capitalism at work, that it was animal agriculture applied to humans, made me go vegan in a snap. It all was a smooth transition once I had to break with western media which started with the Xinjiang propaganda campaign until I was a vocal vegan marxist.
On 4. I don’t know where you got that from, genocide is a material act. The liberal classifications of race and ethnicity are idealist of course but the result, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine for instance, is material reality. A hypothetical AES (emphasis on the A) state wouldn’t classify people by race and ethnicity since they are idealist constructs. However people being part of different cultures is also material reality. That some people will identify as “Uyghur” while others won’t and that this shapes their actions and how they relate to themselves and others is also real. There of course are genocides by states that purport to be socialist. E.g. the khmer rouge, Luna Oi has a great video about them here, but I would say that a state that takes their socialism seriously wouldn’t commit a genocide, there is no incentive to.
Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?
On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?
I appreciate the well read, as you appear to be, but there’s such a thing as overthinking it.
OP’s post is bringing attention to one genocide. I sarcastically drew attention to additional genocidal empires.
It’s not even “whataboutism”. It’s “you are picking and choosing and should be called out for it”.
I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).
For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.
Oh no a genocide!
Hey at least us western nations haven’t been party to such a thing, eh?
This is a classic example of “whataboutism”. One country participating in genocide does not excuse other countries from doing so, nor does it make any of them immune to criticism.
They couldn’t have provided a more obvious example of whataboutism even if they literally wrote one for a textbook.
Ah, “whataboutism”.
The new, “gaslighting” to be thrown around without understanding. 😆
Nope, I think that’s pretty well understood, since it’s exactly what’s happening here.
The only one here with a lack of understanding is yourself, bud!
I don’t think you’re qualified to make that assumption.
You don’t get to decide who’s qualified or not, since you have no problem with genocide and all. LMAO
Riveting discourse
Oh but you get to decide who understands, huh?
What a stupid take. Lol you’re a fucking clown.
Also, where did you get that I “have no problem with genocide”.
I swear to god it’s like talking to half-wits on Lemmy most of the time…
Mmm, loving the ad hominem! You deflect from the East’s genocides because the West does the same, as if that excuses the East for doing it. That’s classic whataboutism and a common tactic of those who don’t have a problem with Eastern genocide.
Uh… nope.
Nothing I said deflects or excuses.
If anything, it includes.
There seems to be a problem with reading comprehension around here.
it’s literally narcissism, I tell you what, all of these gas lighters and their whataboutisms, they are committing literary genocide
The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?
Like war is bad, but only Russia is sanctioned?
People could also acknowledge that the US organise regime changes and that the genocide is part of a hybrid war which shifts some responsibility onto the US.
What? I agree that war is bad no matter who does it, but I don’t understand the relevance?
I’m also not forgiving the US of its sins. I don’t plan on elevating any country or sovereignty or government above my own ethics.
Not even wikipedia thinks it’s genocide anymore… get with the program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Literally lists all the examples of genocide in the Wikipedia.
So dumb it hurts.
I’m talking about that very page being renamed from “uyghur genocide” to “persecution of uyghurs in china”
Protip: if you think that someones “so dumb it hurts” you’re likely misunderstanding something or missing info. Some humility goes a long way.
see the “frequently asked questions” on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APersecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Protip: if you are going to deny a genocide try harder
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
Why!? We already know it is a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/what-is-genocide
Shouldn’t you go somewhere else to deny this genocide, since that is your part? A genocide denier through and through.
not the impression what I got. See the discussion about it here, it seems the main issue was a lack of sources calling it the “uyghur genocide”.
mainly the discussion was kicked off because it revealed wikipedia’s western bias:
So clearly they’re arguing about whether it’s a “settled fact” or not. The discussion there is about a lack of scholarly articles calling it “genocide” and I don’t see anyone arguing it on the basis of it not meeting any sort of legal criteria.
Also you can stop posting the same material over and over again, I promise you I have seen at least the source material, back when I made my deep dive and found it lacking. If there’s anything new on this issue within the last 3 years please do let me know. Otherwise it seems like everybody dropped it as the so-called “human rights violations” peetered out due to lack of us-backed salafi terrorism.
So you don’t think it’s genocide? How come? This is a complicated issue and I’m legitimately seeking information
I have not seen any evidence beyond some generic jail images, there seems to be no resistance organisation within xinjiang, i do not see a reason for china to do this and all the reporting is filled with non-objective loaded language like “authoritarian”, “brutal crackdown”, “chinese regime” etc.
compare all of the reporting from this so-call “genocide” to the actual reporting (the non-western or indie kind) from the actually ongoing genocide of the palestinians, its night and day.
then there were many predominantly muslim countries that sent officials to visit xinjiang and they came back satisfied that there was no ongoing genocide. We get more information out of the tightly regulated gaza ghetto than an entire autonomous region in china. If you want some more hard facts and recent history of the region I can dig some stuff up if you want, I don’t remember most of it since it’s been a while since I looked at this stuff myself.
You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier, so here’s some Wikipedia commentary about recent developments in Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Classification_of_abuses
And an article about terrorism/resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Xinjiang
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
Not at all, on the contrary, I was pointed out that even wikipedia doesn’t call it a genocide anymore.
Not to me, because whenever I look on xiaohongshu for uyghur content there is a lot to find there. The street signs have both uyghur and chinese letters, uyghur is taught in schools, people can practice their faith, I don’t see this erasure at all. Whole-ass street festivals where uyghur people celebrate with their food and music, broadcast on a chinese app aimed mainly at chinese people.
Who is “they” in this case? The government of china underwent multiple radical transformations. I wouldn’t think that the china of today has the same goals as the china of even 50 years ago. Or do you mean the people of china? I am not aware of any popular hateful sentiment towards uyghur people. Shouldn’t there be a lot anti-uyghur propaganda around to rally the han chinese against the uyghurs? Granted I’m not super prolific on chinese media, I occasionally go to xiaohongshu but it would be pretty convincing evidence if there was a governmental campaign to rally hate amongst the han chinese against the uyghur people.
Why do they need erase the culture of the uyghur people to get access to the natural resources there? The extending of borders doesn’t make sense to me, xinjiang is already a part of the republic? And who benefits from all this? A genocide is a massive operation, no one undertakes genocide unless they don’t expect immense profits from it. E. g. during the holocaust it was companies like IG Farben, Bayer, Lufthansa, Siemens, Rheinmetall and so on. Also what was the spark that set it off? The reporting is just like, nothing prior to like 2019 or so, suddenly genocide, then some backtracking and now radio silence again.
And that’s what most people understand under genocide. Also the forcible sterilisation would fall under the ICC definition but aside from that one legal opinion from like 5 years or so is there anything new on that? What about the 1 million people in detention have they been freed? Like I see these articles like this one again after a couple years now and they seem even less credible, just really bombastic flashy effects but at it’s core, just some satellite images showing like 3 or 4 construction sites to prove abductions of hundreds of thousands, that’s the thing that gets me. Hundreds of thousands. That’s a massive massive operation, I would expect more evidence and local resistance groups and aid networks and so on…
So no genocide in Xinjiang? Or are we going by another definition of genocide?
On 1. yeah I should have clarified sorry. After the TikTok exodus I got curious and had a look
On 2. I think it was this comment that had a lot of vital background information, like e.g. that the sufi terrorist attacks that started this whole ordeal were US-backed and orchestrated. That they were doing in Xinjiang what they had previously done in Afghanistan with the mujaheddin. Other links are compiled by davel for instance here.
On 3. I had the exact opposite reaction lol. When reading Marx and Lenin I thought it such a natural way of looking at the world. I remember reading “Wagelabor and capital” I thinking that the individual observation weren’t a great new insight (when demand down then price go down as well who knew?) but put together they formed a new understanding of the world. Looking at stuff like the reserve army of labor gave me a whole new perspective of the world how I relate to society etc.
Part of that is because being christian with a protestant upbringing I had to repeatedly synthesize contradictions. Evolution vs creationism being one of the bigger ones. Lately I’m on veganism vs carnism and speciesm practiced by Jesus himself which might be the one that does it in if I’m to be honest. It’s of course not helped by the fact that all the churches around here are turbozionist so I feel completely estranged from what I used to consider my community. But the whole idea of holding two contradictory concepts and instead of rejecting one or the other marrying them and forming a new understanding of both was something I had already done pretty much all my life.
It completely reshaped my understanding of nazi germany for instance, from one where the nazis were evil because they just hated minorities and people who thought different, to the nazis were the evil expression of the capitalists. The reason the nazis were able to gain power is because they got bankrolled by the industry leaders and the reason the industry leaders bankrolled them is because they were reeling from the aftermath of world war 1 and because they were deathly afraid of a communist revolution in Germany akin to the ones in the soviet states. Taking it further and seeing that the holocaust was basically capitalism at work, that it was animal agriculture applied to humans, made me go vegan in a snap. It all was a smooth transition once I had to break with western media which started with the Xinjiang propaganda campaign until I was a vocal vegan marxist.
On 4. I don’t know where you got that from, genocide is a material act. The liberal classifications of race and ethnicity are idealist of course but the result, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine for instance, is material reality. A hypothetical AES (emphasis on the A) state wouldn’t classify people by race and ethnicity since they are idealist constructs. However people being part of different cultures is also material reality. That some people will identify as “Uyghur” while others won’t and that this shapes their actions and how they relate to themselves and others is also real. There of course are genocides by states that purport to be socialist. E.g. the khmer rouge, Luna Oi has a great video about them here, but I would say that a state that takes their socialism seriously wouldn’t commit a genocide, there is no incentive to.
Look at this guy. Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
Then complain about all genocide instead of picking and choosing, right there bud?
No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?
On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?
I appreciate the well read, as you appear to be, but there’s such a thing as overthinking it.
OP’s post is bringing attention to one genocide. I sarcastically drew attention to additional genocidal empires.
It’s not even “whataboutism”. It’s “you are picking and choosing and should be called out for it”.
I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).
For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.