you either don’t believe that the liberal democratic “left” constantly attacks the real left because it endangers the status quo, or you think the real left should ignore it and still team up with them even as they do everything to weaken them.
if the first is the case, i believe you should do more research and i can post some links.
if the second, i think that’s a dumb strategy and never really worked. it’s well known that liberals always team up with the fascists in the end to protect the status quo.
The second is literally the only way party reform has occurred historically. If you think change can happen another way you’re delusional. You’re literally declaring that it has to be full tilt republican fascism or actual revolution because both of those are infinitely more likely than a third party ever having power. So are you just an accelerationist? You working for republicans? Are you even American? You a tankie? What’s your goal here, because stopping the rise of fascism sure doesn’t seem to rate for you.
You are on the wrong side of this issue. Stop blaming everybody else and look at your own assumptions and beliefs. You’re acting more like a controlled op than the people you’re responding to.
I believe that the cold, hard math of game theory shows that trying to work outside the two-party system is a fool’s errand, so Democratic Party must be usurped from within. Discouraging people from voting is absolutely unhelpful for that and is tantamount to traitorously helping the corporatists.
This discussion is about “splitting the left,” and voting is the primary way in which that manifests. Of course we were talking about voting (and in particular, how posts like this discourage it), even if the particular word wasn’t used yet.
The parent comment asserted without evidence that “posts like this are designed to split the left.” Then Štěpán responded by doubting that the unity the parent comment implied exists in the first place. This is all a dispute of facts; actions can then be taken based on those facts but so far you’re assuming an argument “don’t vote for the Democrats” that nobody made. Or, in other words, there are conclusions you can make from “the centrists actually hate us and everything we stand for” other than “don’t vote in the election.”
Oh I fully believe it’s happening, but I think it’s a problem that is amplified by the right to suppress liberal turnout…and it works. Look at 2024. It fucking worked.
And it’s going to happen again in 2028 if we don’t knock it the fuck off.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
Step 2 through 10 involve actually fixing the system. But none of it will happen if step 1 isn’t completed FIRST.
I just don’t feel confident that it was the propaganda of the right suppressing liberal interest, and not the authentic apathy of people not finding democracy in the democratic party.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
I also don’t feel confident the current for of the democratic party is equipped for this, and I think not pushing them to do better is how we went from Biden to Trump 2.
I actually liked Harris. She was smart, skilled, and experienced. But she had a vagina so 7 million Joe Biden voters refused to show up… (I know that’s only part of the reason, but I also know that misogyny is just as prevalent in the left as it is in the right.
I vote down ballot every election, I am not who you need to convince. I am explaining to you that, as we saw in 24, when people don’t feel heard they don’t show up. You can take another stab at corporate dems trying to vote shame enough people into showing up, or you can learn from the past and realize shame doesn’t motivate votes.
I’m at the point that I might be the one to stop showing up… I mean, if people are so focused on their pet project that they have stopped giving a shit about stopping the overarching evil, then maybe it’s time to let the evil win.
Maybe you could ride this emotion into a shred of empathy and imagine yourself being a Palestinian who had 20+ family members killed under Biden, watched the DNC attendees cover their ears when faced with the government they support, watched your close friends tear gassed and arrested for begging your school to stop giving money to the slaughter of your family; then after no primary, no voice at the DNC, and a cheered promise of the most lethal military in the world, you’re insulted for having a “pet project” that is over shadowed by the ‘real’ evil.
America is evil when democrats are in power too, and if you want to throw a tantrum instead of be productive, I can’t stop you. But maybe you should realize there are people that have been at this fight longer than we’ve been alive and are trying more than just voting.
I fully admit I fucking hate what the Israelis’ are doing, and think they should be cut off and left to twist… But the middle east isn’t on us, other than the fact that we continue to meddle in it.
But I’m more worried about shit happening here… We can’t solve the world’s problems until we fix ours first… I have lots of empathy…for people here dying because of lack of healthcare, for victims of right-wing fascism in the US…
We can’t be the world police until we fix our own house. That has to happen FIRST.
But I’m more worried about shit happening here… We can’t solve the world’s problems until we fix ours first… I have lots of empathy…for people here dying because of lack of healthcare, for victims of right-wing fascism in the US…
That’s really great… that you have lots of empathy… maybe you should direct that into action and do something about the failures of democrats that cause right wing fascists to win elections.
We can’t be the world police until we fix our own house. That has to happen FIRST.
Why the fuck do you think the US should be the world police?
I’m doing the exact opposite. This isn’t a temper tantrum, this is a desire to live my life to it’s fullest when the world around me has decided it no longer gives a fuck about my general wellbeing.
Single-issue voting is bollocks. It’s the same logic gun-owners and christians use to support horrid candidates no matter what… “They are pro-gun” is all they need to overlook the rest of the hell.
Taking your ball and going home when you don’t get what you want sounds functionally identical to a temper tantrum to me. I care about the raise of fascism, so even when things don’t go my way or I wish voters would fucking think, I don’t give up because that’s only less useful.
It wasn’t single issue voting though. It was the constant narrative that this is as good as it can be, and that no one is going to help; that the people have no say, and the only mistakes made were not having a republican in the cabinet. It’s that after the protests of 2020 trying to hold cops accountable, we get an old segregationist and a cop for the candidates. After the years of crying over splitting families we only ever increase funding to ICE. That after the supreme court leaked their overturn of Row, democrats did nothing but fundraise. Healthcare, housing, schooling, childcare, food, transportation, all ballooning in costs, cutting any covid protections that existed. It’s the constant story that the only thing the democrats can offer is that it will be worse under Trump. They are right, it was obvious it was/is worse under Trump, but when all those issues are piling on people, it’s not surprising that enough also think “maybe it’s time to let the evil win” to see what happens.
Given that, the solution isn’t to shame voters, it’s to build power people can believe in.
you either don’t believe that the liberal democratic “left” constantly attacks the real left because it endangers the status quo, or you think the real left should ignore it and still team up with them even as they do everything to weaken them.
if the first is the case, i believe you should do more research and i can post some links.
if the second, i think that’s a dumb strategy and never really worked. it’s well known that liberals always team up with the fascists in the end to protect the status quo.
The second is literally the only way party reform has occurred historically. If you think change can happen another way you’re delusional. You’re literally declaring that it has to be full tilt republican fascism or actual revolution because both of those are infinitely more likely than a third party ever having power. So are you just an accelerationist? You working for republicans? Are you even American? You a tankie? What’s your goal here, because stopping the rise of fascism sure doesn’t seem to rate for you.
You are on the wrong side of this issue. Stop blaming everybody else and look at your own assumptions and beliefs. You’re acting more like a controlled op than the people you’re responding to.
Bot ass comment.
I believe that the cold, hard math of game theory shows that trying to work outside the two-party system is a fool’s errand, so Democratic Party must be usurped from within. Discouraging people from voting is absolutely unhelpful for that and is tantamount to traitorously helping the corporatists.
Using the phrase “game theory” when you really mean “I’ve had a bit of a think” is an antipattern, and much more transparent than you seem to think.
Removed by mod
Literally nobody said anything about voting.
This discussion is about “splitting the left,” and voting is the primary way in which that manifests. Of course we were talking about voting (and in particular, how posts like this discourage it), even if the particular word wasn’t used yet.
The parent comment asserted without evidence that “posts like this are designed to split the left.” Then Štěpán responded by doubting that the unity the parent comment implied exists in the first place. This is all a dispute of facts; actions can then be taken based on those facts but so far you’re assuming an argument “don’t vote for the Democrats” that nobody made. Or, in other words, there are conclusions you can make from “the centrists actually hate us and everything we stand for” other than “don’t vote in the election.”
Oh I fully believe it’s happening, but I think it’s a problem that is amplified by the right to suppress liberal turnout…and it works. Look at 2024. It fucking worked.
And it’s going to happen again in 2028 if we don’t knock it the fuck off.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
Step 2 through 10 involve actually fixing the system. But none of it will happen if step 1 isn’t completed FIRST.
I just don’t feel confident that it was the propaganda of the right suppressing liberal interest, and not the authentic apathy of people not finding democracy in the democratic party.
I also don’t feel confident the current for of the democratic party is equipped for this, and I think not pushing them to do better is how we went from Biden to Trump 2.
Push them to do better by voting in the primaries… but don’t give up and stay home when the candidate you like doesn’t win the primary. Fucking vote.
Yeah! if the people didnt want kamala to be the one to run against Trump, they would have voted so in the primary.
I actually liked Harris. She was smart, skilled, and experienced. But she had a vagina so 7 million Joe Biden voters refused to show up… (I know that’s only part of the reason, but I also know that misogyny is just as prevalent in the left as it is in the right.
I vote down ballot every election, I am not who you need to convince. I am explaining to you that, as we saw in 24, when people don’t feel heard they don’t show up. You can take another stab at corporate dems trying to vote shame enough people into showing up, or you can learn from the past and realize shame doesn’t motivate votes.
I’m at the point that I might be the one to stop showing up… I mean, if people are so focused on their pet project that they have stopped giving a shit about stopping the overarching evil, then maybe it’s time to let the evil win.
Im so glad youre being honest with yourself.
Maybe you could ride this emotion into a shred of empathy and imagine yourself being a Palestinian who had 20+ family members killed under Biden, watched the DNC attendees cover their ears when faced with the government they support, watched your close friends tear gassed and arrested for begging your school to stop giving money to the slaughter of your family; then after no primary, no voice at the DNC, and a cheered promise of the most lethal military in the world, you’re insulted for having a “pet project” that is over shadowed by the ‘real’ evil.
America is evil when democrats are in power too, and if you want to throw a tantrum instead of be productive, I can’t stop you. But maybe you should realize there are people that have been at this fight longer than we’ve been alive and are trying more than just voting.
I fully admit I fucking hate what the Israelis’ are doing, and think they should be cut off and left to twist… But the middle east isn’t on us, other than the fact that we continue to meddle in it.
But I’m more worried about shit happening here… We can’t solve the world’s problems until we fix ours first… I have lots of empathy…for people here dying because of lack of healthcare, for victims of right-wing fascism in the US…
We can’t be the world police until we fix our own house. That has to happen FIRST.
Weird to come back to this reply when the other already talks about the failures of democrats and the problems it causes locally.
If I keep reloading the school shooter’s gun, the dead kids are on me too.
That’s really great… that you have lots of empathy… maybe you should direct that into action and do something about the failures of democrats that cause right wing fascists to win elections.
Why the fuck do you think the US should be the world police?
I’m doing the exact opposite. This isn’t a temper tantrum, this is a desire to live my life to it’s fullest when the world around me has decided it no longer gives a fuck about my general wellbeing.
Single-issue voting is bollocks. It’s the same logic gun-owners and christians use to support horrid candidates no matter what… “They are pro-gun” is all they need to overlook the rest of the hell.
Taking your ball and going home when you don’t get what you want sounds functionally identical to a temper tantrum to me. I care about the raise of fascism, so even when things don’t go my way or I wish voters would fucking think, I don’t give up because that’s only less useful.
It wasn’t single issue voting though. It was the constant narrative that this is as good as it can be, and that no one is going to help; that the people have no say, and the only mistakes made were not having a republican in the cabinet. It’s that after the protests of 2020 trying to hold cops accountable, we get an old segregationist and a cop for the candidates. After the years of crying over splitting families we only ever increase funding to ICE. That after the supreme court leaked their overturn of Row, democrats did nothing but fundraise. Healthcare, housing, schooling, childcare, food, transportation, all ballooning in costs, cutting any covid protections that existed. It’s the constant story that the only thing the democrats can offer is that it will be worse under Trump. They are right, it was obvious it was/is worse under Trump, but when all those issues are piling on people, it’s not surprising that enough also think “maybe it’s time to let the evil win” to see what happens.
Given that, the solution isn’t to shame voters, it’s to build power people can believe in.