The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn’t currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don’t believe it’s “such a historical evil” nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren’t fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I’d have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn’t I?
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed
Did you not read what I wrote above or…?
wanting to overthrow the government is too far.
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They’re usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They’re often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can’t imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There’s a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we’d be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that… How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don’t you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you’re willing to take up arms when you can’t even knock on your neighbor’s door?
Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US’s wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren’t much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil
Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
So threads like this is where polite discourse ends. It’s like “facts with proof: US announced to extend Nato to Ukraine in 2008 to remain hegemon, they regime changed and couped Ukraine in 2014, here you see nazis all over Ukraine” in an attempt to show that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil.
And you just say “yeah both sides man! both sides! But tankies man, they would support slave holders today!”
You offer the insults. You deny reality. You do the warmongering. We’re not even defending Putin, all we’re saying “they reacted like predicted and how they said they would. If we want peace, we need to act like this and accept their demand for Ukraine neutrality”
And that is NOT the same. You’re the imperial fascist warmonger denying reality. We (the people you call tankies) are the rational, educated and initially polite people suggesting a peaceful solution.
I am impressed by everyone’s endurance in this thread. This is good stuff. I don’t think anyone has even called anyone names yet. I am very happy about this outcome. Upvotes for everyone!
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don’t believe it’s “such a historical evil” nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren’t fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I’d have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn’t I?
Did you not read what I wrote above or…?
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They’re usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They’re often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can’t imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There’s a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we’d be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that… How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don’t you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you’re willing to take up arms when you can’t even knock on your neighbor’s door?
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren’t much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
So threads like this is where polite discourse ends. It’s like “facts with proof: US announced to extend Nato to Ukraine in 2008 to remain hegemon, they regime changed and couped Ukraine in 2014, here you see nazis all over Ukraine” in an attempt to show that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil.
And you just say “yeah both sides man! both sides! But tankies man, they would support slave holders today!”
You offer the insults. You deny reality. You do the warmongering. We’re not even defending Putin, all we’re saying “they reacted like predicted and how they said they would. If we want peace, we need to act like this and accept their demand for Ukraine neutrality”
And that is NOT the same. You’re the imperial fascist warmonger denying reality. We (the people you call tankies) are the rational, educated and initially polite people suggesting a peaceful solution.
I am impressed by everyone’s endurance in this thread. This is good stuff. I don’t think anyone has even called anyone names yet. I am very happy about this outcome. Upvotes for everyone!