Oh tyvm for the info. I remember seeing progress on that front. Nice to see they did it. I shall add that to the small list of changes I plan to make. I will of course obsess over it for a while before considering the changes done. As is tradition ^^ Oh and no worries about commenting wherever. No such thing as noise if it’s in a meme thread :p And thank you for the praise 🩷

“Kids can’t consent to puberty blockers cuz it’s a big decision without permanent bodily changes.”

“Kids’ consent doesn’t matter when it comes to puberty, which has permanent bodily changes.”

From my limited experience talking to people against puberty blockers, first of all, they never remember the first part, that blockers are reversible and that the whole point is that they’re temporary and don’t leave permanent bodily changes. They always forget that aspect. That’s not relevant to their concerns. What makes them firm in their position is that they say it’s to protect kids from making the wrong decision.

(same thing they tell full-grown adults as to why we all need some random stranger’s permission before we’re allowed anything in the way of medical transition, to “protect” us from ourselves. indefinitely infantilized regardless of age.)

It doesn’t matter how many times the suicide rates are brought up or how they’re arguing for the protection of hypothetical cisgender kids who somehow accidentally go through transition as a result of being allowed blockers, at the cost of real transgender kids who can and do advocate for themselves only to be told no. Nothing changes these people. Because they would honestly rather that lots of trans kids die if it means they could possibly “save” even one cisgender kid from accidentally transitioning (which again, is not what blockers are for). They view trans people as lesser and a worthy sacrifice so as to save someone from being transgender.

I hope that was coherent enough, I’m tired, in many ways. have some trans: 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️

edited to make it slightly less annoying to read here, have some more trans: 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️

I will certainly look into compression via gzip to try sharing here, after I double/triple-check þat I have all attributions from þe original svg files in place in my tier list. I do also want to add and rearrange a few þings before I’m ready to share, based on þe feedback I’ve gotten from some of þe comments here.

Idk about catbox.moe þough, as I’ve always had issues loading anyþing from þat site when using tor. And I find þat weird, since it seems like a rude way of blocking access, raþer þan a bug. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like a block as opposed to reject, leaving þe client waiting for a response while being ignored by þe server. Idk what else could explain þe consistent behaviour I experience.

As for a repo, if þat ever happens it will be my own. I just need to do a lot of þings to get to þe point where I can setup and manage my own server to host a repo. Ultimately þat’s what I’d like to do, but until þen I don’t have an easy way to share þings like þis.

(sorry for þe late reply)

I have tended to prefer Deiban-based distros too, I just recently found Alpine Linux and have been giving postmarketOS another chance on my Pinephone. But I haven’t switched from PureOS on my Librem 5 yet, and I still rely on debian-minimal templates in Qubes OS (and a few Fedora templates too). I feel like I wanna go with Alpine Linux for qube templates but at the same time worry if it’ll be too much work and time better spent going with Devuan but idk yet. It’s nice that we still have options.

Yeah, that’s valid. I’m interested in Alpine Linux and postmarketOS myself, but Devuan is a nice choice as well. Especially since Devuan and also Slackware Linux explicitly said they will refuse to comply with such laws. I liked the Slackware Linux response, which pointed out that such laws are actually unconstitutional in the states.

If you’re talking about the age-verification stuff, I actually did have a group for “Plans to Age-Verify” but decided to hide that since it made the image even more complicated and difficult to interpret than it already is. If/when any of the distros above the gray area do end up implementing age-verification in such a way that the user cannot simply ignore it, then they will be dropped to the gray area with the other operating systems which I cannot recommend.

LineageOS doesn’t include any Google apps or services by default, nor does it include MicroG. (It does give an optional step to flash a GApps package in the official install guides, but this can be skipped no problem)

On this point, I didn’t suggest otherwise, and I don’t disagree.

LineageOS does use proprietary Google BLOBs for AGPS services and wifi captive portal detection, both of which are anonymised by the nature of the protocols used. But more importantly, /e/ OS also uses these too, so /e/ shouldn’t be ranked any higher than LineageOS is

Looking into this here and here, I see that you are correct that /e/OS still has not fully degoogled:

A-GPS and SUPL servers

⚙️ Under investigation with the /e/OS development team.

How /e/OS deGoogle’s Android

• Clean up of the source code by removing most Google server calls
• Connectivity checks traditionally done against Google servers, replaced with our servers
• Replace Google NTP servers for network time protocol
• Removed default Google DNS and offers more choices for DNS settings
• Replaced all default Google Apps by privacy-safe and feature-equivalent apps
• Adds an anonymity layer to Google services that are difficult to live without such as push notifications and access to Play Store applications

So you are correct that I should drop /e/OS down to the Dubious row for advertising itself as degoogled and yet not being fully degoogled. Idk how GrapheneOS can manage their own servers for properly degoogling while /e/OS fails to do so.

Technically, disabling gps would effectively finalize the degoogling of /e/OS, as it currently exists. The questionable/suspicious aspect of this is that there isn’t any documentation for how to finish the degoogling process that is accessibly presented to the user. I do find it annoying enough that clueless users won’t know to disable MicroG in order to continue degoogling the phone, which is advertised as being already degoogled. Having to disable a useful feature like gps in order to finish the degoogling process is weird and bad and wrong to not inform the user in such a way that non-tech users understand.

I still find LineageOS to be borderline malware for having captive portal connectivity checks which /e/OS has properly degoogled. Unless something has changed in the last few years, Waydroid (containerized LineageOS) attempts to make connections to google upon starting up, which does not seem to be the case for /e/OS.

From another one of my comments in this thread:

I had tried Waydroid on my linux phone, and the OpenSnitch firewall running in the host linux system flagged multiple google connections that Waydroid was attempting to make upon starting. Basic connectivity stuff, but googled nonetheless. I hadn’t seen any disclaimers on their site about it, but I also hadn’t seen anything about LineageOS advertising itself as degoogled in the first place. I view degoogled android as generally acceptable (though it’s not for me), but googled android is unacceptable (in my view). So I placed Waydroid in the Dubious row to represent my unwillingness to recommend it.

And if I remember correctly, those connections were attempted every time I started Waydroid, not just the first time.

Well anyway, thanks for the info. Between this and the need to add CalyxOS into the list, I’ll need a lot more time to move things around.

❤️

I overlooked FreeDOS and forgot about it even though it did come up when I had been looking for differrent operating systems to include. Reading the wiki page for it, I think I would place it in the Minimal row.

I had opted to ignore Haiku because it’s been in a persistent state of alpha/beta for over a decade, but if I were to add it to the tier list, I think I’d place it in the Indie & BSD row.

I hadn’t heard of 9Front until your comment, so I looked it up and read this article about it, and from my limited reading, I suppose I’d probably place it in the Indie & BSD row.

Well everything has weaknesses, and nothing is perfect. I still trust xen over linux and Qubes OS over any other operating system. It is “a reasonably secure operating system” and doesn’t claim to be anything else. But you are definitely correct to point out that we should not put blind trust into something as if it cannot fail.

• I’m not sure Android belongs in the bottom tier. Or at least not yet. As of right now, you can still use it as an open OS, and it’s great for devices such as handheld gaming consoles. I’ve also never seen age verification in Android yet.

Google’s Android is in the Malware row because google is a nefarious surveillance advertising corporation, and their android offering is known for having trackers/spyware built-in. From what I’ve read, Android Open Source Project (AOSP) is to Android as Chromium is to Chrome, in that it’s not as infested with google trackers/spyware while still being generally googled in the way that it phones home for ntp and dns connectivity checks.

You are correct that android does not yet require age-verification, and I’m kinda surprised you’re the only one to have pointed this out so far. I simply didn’t feel like waiting to share this tier list meme thing and didn’t want to make it seem as though apple is the only one implementing age-verification.

• Why is LineageOS ‘borderline’? I’m not aware of anything dangerous about it. It’s not far from Graphene, just for a lot more devices.

LineageOS is not degoogled and will connect to google unless properly firewalled, which afaik cannot be done properly on-device. LineageOS is googled android, and google is a nefarious surveillance advertising corporation. So LineageOS is borderline malware in my eyes.

In contrast, GrapheneOS is fully degoogled and is also maximally secured, which is why I placed it in a much higher rank. Though, it is ultimately still android, so it’s not for me. Android is under google’s control and doesn’t look like it will last indefinitely. I feel that android itself is a dead-end. Projects like GrapheneOS will have to do a hard fork away from android one day, or they will cease to exist as an option.

• Why are Artix Linux and Waydroid ‘dubious’? Especially Waydroid, as it’s not an operating system.

Waydroid is basically a containerized LineageOS which can at least be firewalled from the host os, but that’s sub-optimal, which is why I have it one notch above LineageOS.

I had tried Waydroid on my linux phone, and the OpenSnitch firewall running in the host linux system flagged multiple google connections that Waydroid was attempting to make upon starting. Basic connectivity stuff, but googled nonetheless. I hadn’t seen any disclaimers on their site about it, but I also hadn’t seen anything about LineageOS advertising itself as degoogled in the first place. I view degoogled android as generally acceptable (though it’s not for me), but googled android is unacceptable (in my view). So I placed Waydroid in the Dubious row to represent my unwillingness to recommend it.

As for Artix Linux, this repo, made in response to another repo, has this bit:

Artix Linux | Developers are openly transphobic

When attempting to click the link to see for myself, I still find that the artix forums are inaccessible, and so I can’t see for myself. I remember seeing something mentioned on a reddit post or forum somewhere about the same sort of thing, which makes me think it’s true. So I placed Artix in the Dubious row to represent my unwillingness to recommend it.

The other two I’m unfamiliar with, or at least the logos.

The other two distros in the Dubious row are Omarchy and OpenMandriva.

When researching Omarchy, I came across articles like this, this, and this detailing the many unpleasant aspects of the dev’s character, including racism and transmisia. So I placed Omarchy in the Dubious row to represent my unwillingness to recommend it.

When researching OpenMandriva, I came across lots of links referring to it as “the non-woke linux distro” and their forum, which was and is accessible, was what I’d expected to see. Basically “non-political” politics, which tends to mean anti-<group>. It was an unpleasant place, and I think the intention is to make it unpleasant for the types of people they hate so as to keep them away. So I placed OpenMandriva in the Dubious row to represent my unwillingness to recommend it.

This might be the best looking and most comprehensive tier list of anything I’ve ever seen.

tyvm 🩷

I prefer the term “fool” for this use-case. Similar to this 🏳️‍⚧️ meme:

LineageOS is not degoogled and will connect to google unless properly firewalled, which afaik cannot be done properly on-device. LineageOS is googled android, and google is a nefarious surveillance advertising corporation. So LineageOS is borderline malware in my eyes.

/e/OS is not in any of the gray rows that denote a failing grade. It is in the red “Corporate” row, because it is owned/controlled by a corporate entity, and it has a passing grade from me. I trust it for my parents and other “normal” people who need a phone that works without issues. MicroG is installed and enabled by default, but if it is disabled, then /e/OS becomes fully degoogled.

Correction: /e/OS will be moved to the Dubious row for not being fully degoogled.

However, as I said in another comment:

android is under google’s control and doesn’t look like it will last indefinitely. I feel that android itself is a dead-end. Projects like GrapheneOS will have to do a hard fork away from android one day, or they will cease to exist as an option.

Why does LFS have its own group? Honestly, it’s mainly just so that the logo stands out better in the dark-mode version of this tier list. I also felt it made sense to single it out as special.

Why are there groups for Secure Fedora and Secure Android? Since there are already groups for Red Hat distros (which includes Fedora) and Android, I thought it made sense to make it obvious that the secure fedora/android distros were part of those other groups, similar to my reasoning for making a Secure Debian group. Those distros being optimally secured grants them higher rank than all the rest of the distros from those groups. All the other distros stay where they are because I don’t see them as different enough to rise in the list. The secured ones, I do see as having reason to rise, and so they are placed higher, but I want it to be obvious that they are in fact Debian/Fedora/Android at their core.

As I said in another comment:

I did initially have CachyOS in the gaming group, but after looking a little closer, it appears to be a general-purpose distro optimized for performance, which happens to be useful for gaming. So it doesn’t seem to be specifically made for gaming, which is why I pulled it out of that group but kept it right next to it (and next to the “popular” group, since it’s one of the most popular distros).

It’s definitely not for everyone, but it’s very good at what it sets out to do and be, for those who want or need such a thing. It compliments my ocd nicely, especially the concept of disposable qubes. It’s just perfect for me. The optimal security also gives me peace of mind, a calm mind. It’s lovely. But yeah, I understand that it’s not for everyone. It’s cool that you tried it though. Most people don’t even know it exists.

I haven’t actually tried them all, not even most of them. The spider one is Slitaz. There’s a spoilered list in the main post btw.

💕

Serious reply: That’s understandable. Fun reply: Imagine how useless the emoji version would be to you :p

One problem is that some of the distro names are so long that I’d either have to shrink the text for all names or do it selectively, neither of which feels good to me, so I opted to just not list the names in the image itself (at least not yet). Another thing is that it took so long to align all the other text in the image, and it would devour my time to try adding all of the distro names. Yet another thing, I’m pretty sure I’d have to shrink all of the logos in order to properly fit the distro names, and even slightly altering the size of any logo would mean that I’d have to spend a lot of time realligning them. Did I mention that I made this in a text editor?

I kinda disappeared from fedi for a long time when I switched to using matrix, but I eventually started browsing again and only recently decided to actually interact. Idk how long this will last for me though, since I generally feel disconnected from this platform and its people. Most people really. I used to see these platforms as possibilities for finding people and building communities, but they all seem more like outlets than anything else. Some users meme, others rant or rage, and it feels like such an emptiness. idk, count this as one of my mini-rants. 🩷

While that can be a valid concern, that’s not my reason for placing Artix in the Dubious row. See my other response here.

(can someone remind me how to properly format links to comments so they bring the user to the instance being used?)